[Music] Welcome to another episode of Tech Unhinged, where tech gets human. I’m your host Rabia Javeed and today I’m excited to have Anavi on the show. Anavi is a leader in cloud infrastructure and product management at Microsoft with nearly a decade of experience shaping AI solutions with Azure data bricks. She’s been at the forefront of some incredible large-scale tech initiatives, helping businesses scale their AI infrastructure. She’s also passionate about advocating inclusivity in tech, paving her way for future generations of leaders, especially women in tech. Welcome to the show, Na’vi. Thanks so much, Rabia. I’m so glad to be here. This seems like such a great platform and happy to share what little insight I may have. We are really glad to have you joining us today. Um, and I will start off with your journey, which is super impressive for us, especially, you know, with your leadership role at Microsoft. Can you start by telling us how you got into tech and what sparked your interest in cloud infrastructure? Yeah, it’s kind of a funny story. I actually didn’t want to work at Microsoft uh when I was in school. That was not something that I thought I would do at the time. I was just applying to a bunch of different jobs just like one does, you know, when they’re graduating. And my father happened to mention that, hey, why don’t you apply to Microsoft? And I was like, micro I’m like this is not a relevant company. Like they’re not doing anything cool. Like why would I want to work there, right? and I studied math and statistics. So I was like, “Hey, I’m going to be a lead analyst and I’m going to be the person who does exactly what she studied, right?” Because mostly I was talking to people who are doing something completely different than what they were studying, which I don’t know why I cared about that, but I was like, “Yes, I’m I’m going to be that person. I studied math and statistics. I’m going to do analysis and I’m going to do that.” But then, you know, my father is as stubborn as me. And so he didn’t let it go. And so I was like, “You know what? It’s just one more job. I’ll apply to it.” So I happened to apply to it. And I got a call from someone who then went on to become my manager as as things would have it. And he asked me on the phone. He’s like, “Hey, do you know what Azure is? I’m many things, but I’m not a liar.” And I was like, “No, I actually don’t know what Azure is.” And I’m not going to sit here and pretend that I do. And he was actually kind of I could see a little surprise or shock or feel a little surprise or shock in his voice. And I said, “Okay, you know, I’m not going to get this call back. Like it is what it is.” Lo and behold, he did call me back and say, “Hey, you know, like we want to get you in person for a interview round.” And at the time we didn’t have the luxury of virtual. This is like pre pre-lockdowns and such. And so I went on to the Microsoft headquartered campus here in Redmond. And I each interviewer I talked to it was just a conversation cuz there was no pressure. I felt like I don’t want this job. I already know what the job I want is or so I thought. So there was no pressure and it was just conversations that we had and I learned about what they were doing in Azure. And it was the coolest thing. I was like wait why aren’t you talking about this more? this is awesome. And so halfway through the day, I was like, “Wait, now I want this job and now I’m concerned because I feel like I could have prepared more for it.” But yeah, as as things panned out, they they were super interested and I think they took a shot on me even though I didn’t have any background in in networking or the cloud and then I started working there. So I I think I I landed up. Uh I don’t know if you believe in Destiny or not, but I think it just kind of worked out. Um, and thanks to my dad, I guess he like was like, “You must apply.” And I was like, “Fine, I guess I will.” So that’s actually how I ended up at Microsoft and then specifically on the Azure um team, specifically on the Azure networking team. And so I had to learn all about networks and TCP IP and packet flows and connectivity. And the thing about network we always say is like network is like the air. People only worry about it when it’s not around, right? Or when you don’t have it. When it’s things are great, nobody really thinks about it. But like even in this, you know, podcast, uh if there’s no network, we wouldn’t be able to be connected as a whole, right? And so it’s just something we all need but we don’t realize. And so it was cool to learn more about that as I delved deeper into the cloud infrastructure. Super random foraya into cloud, but I’m glad I made it. Yeah. And we we sort of glad to have you here today with us because of all of that. So Anami, what does a typical day look like for you at Microsoft? So great question. The funniest thing is in the last 9 years, I don’t think any two days have been the same. And I think that’s an environment where some people would not like, but I feel like I thrive in that. Maybe one day you’re writing docks. Maybe on one day you’re driving a bridge because a customer is down. Or maybe on one day there’s a customer escalation, you’re talking to a customer. I feel like I walk in every day I’m like, “These are the three things I need to get done.” And then it’s very unlikely that all those three things get done. But other things do get done overall. So a typical day is usually um of course supporting my team as best as I can. I’m very people centric. People matter to me significantly. So they’re always my top priority. But apart from that, it’s just really you do what you need. And I think that’s really the skill that you develop as a product manager. You do what it takes to get things done, right? So whether I’m a content writer one day, whether I’m a marketing person, whether I’m an escalation manager, whether I’m looking at a support ticket to help a customer, or whether I’m driving a incident bridge as we call it, I feel like every day I I discover like, okay, what am I going to learn today? And that’s part of the excitement um that I really thrive in in my opinion. Uh I don’t think I could do a job uh that is very similar day in and day out. Um and and that’s part of the thrill for me overall. So in one day, these are kind of the different things that happen, but it’s really hard to predict just because of the nature of the cloud, right? If a customer needs something or there’s an outage or there’s a customer issue, you’re going to step in and and prevent everything else. Of course, this is beyond like the day-to-day of building features, writing specs, working on execution, updating uh stakeholders and and leadership on on different things going on. Apart from that, there’s there’s always some fires going on, but I think it keeps it interesting. As much as I complain about them sometimes, I I think I do thrive in that environment. So, that’s a glimpse into day-to-day, at least for my role here at Microsoft. No, I think that’s great. You know, as long as we are getting the cake and, you know, keep up with the right motivation and spirit, it only makes us better at our jobs. I believe I agree. I think it truly pushes you to your boundaries. Um, definitely reflecting on the last decade, what I used to do maybe day one, year one, it’s so different than how I handle it today. Um, and sometimes it’s nice to just pause and acknowledge that growth, right? I think the bar is constantly moving in our minds, so sometimes we forget. And so at Microsoft, we do kind of annual reviews like twice a year. We call them connects. And so I always find that season a good time to be like, okay, wow, like, yeah, I did accomplish something. We did accomplish something. And taking time to reflect on that in in that journey, I think it’s it’s truly incredible cuz sometimes things are moving so fast in the cloud that you forget to acknowledge like, okay, yeah, we we guys, like we we’re doing stuff. Yes, there’s customer escalations, but I don’t think if customers are happy, they’re going to escalate to the product group and be like, “Hey, I’m so happy. I just wanted to escalate to you and let you know, right?” So, we’ll always see the not so great maybe feedback, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not great feedback, too. So, how has your role evolved over time? You know, with the growing focus on AI in particular, has it been more challenging lately or do you think that, you know, things are um comparatively easier now? Yeah, that’s a great question. I think my role has evolved from building the infrastructure that AI needs uh because there’s a lot of capacity that’s needed for to power this kind of stuff right and I think we do need to get better and more efficient and we’re working on the software side to try to make that more efficient. uh we are I would say in my opinion very early days of AI right just like we were in the mobile first world just like we were in like the internet overall I think we’re still in early days and we’re trying to all figure out how we can add value to people’s lives improve productivity or add value to the world as a whole so that being said though I think it’s interesting to see the other side of it right my friends will be like oh I asked AI like what itinerary I should do for my trip to XYZ and I’m over here like dude do you know how much capacity I’m trying to support to make that happen. And you’re asking these silly questions. So, I saw kind of the other side of it. So, it was funny cuz that’s how I actually built relationships with a lot of the few folks in in the larger open source and AI community because we had to power them with all of this capacity to build their products and their chat interfaces that most people use today. And so initially I feel like I had a not so great uh opinion or view of it because massive amount of capacity and then scaling that across regions and then making sure when you’re connecting across regions there’s no latency so that you get that response for your freaking itinary of wherever you’re going um super quickly. And so seeing the other side of how things are made to power that I think was a very refreshing method. And then since then I’ve switched into more of the data analytics and AI space with Azure data bricks. And so now my previous products are the infrastructure, right? So I used to own these networking products as a whole. And so it’s really like I know what is under the covers and what is behind and now I’m you know on top of that infrastructure so to speak and so now I’m also asking the questions or helping people ask the questions. And so it’s been an interesting development knowing both the under the covers and the infrastructure but then also now how people are leveraging it for their use cases and how they can uh remove mundane tasks from people’s lives and help productivity and and just make help make time for things you actually want to do versus things you can outsource um and automate like mundane tasks. So that’s been kind of my journey overall. I think I’m still a little bit of a skeptic just because I have feel like it’s early days and we haven’t figured out how we’re actually going to add value coupled with the cost whether that’s environmental cost or whether that’s uh cost of other angles as well. But I think we’ll get there just like anything. It’s it’s still nent. It’s still new. We’ll figure out what the right way to do uh going forward. But it’s it’s lovely to be part of it, right? Instead of um waiting and finding out where it’s going to go. It’s nice to be able to influence the industry and be part of that change so to speak. So it’s been really rewarding uh really hard, really tough, but I’m glad to have those different angles both on the infrastructure side and now more on the analytics, data and AI side. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that you know in today’s time the impact is um a lot faster in comparison to how things were before. You know you do something and then the impact is out there and the tech industry is actually moving at a really really fast pace I believe. So you know that’s really thrilling. Absolutely. And I think there’s like I really have maybe a two black and white view of the world. But I really believe that it’s the people who are going to complain, the people who are going to do stuff, right? Like I could sit there and complain like, “Oh, this is not good and this is not good.” Or I could say, “Yeah, you know what? That is not good, but here’s how we’re going to make it better or here’s how we’re going to improve it or here’s what we can do.” And so I think this is the time to do that. And and we need those different voices from different backgrounds and different skill sets overall to lean in so that in the future we don’t suffer the consequences of it, right? And so I think we all have that responsibility and that accountability uh to lean in and and make sure that we do create something that’s adding value to the world overall. When we talk about building AI infrastructure versus buying it, what exactly do those terms mean for businesses that are just starting to explore AI? Yeah, I think I would think of it as like I always try to take these comp seemingly complex things and simplify it in in everyday language. Just think of it as like buying a pre-built Lego functionality. Maybe I don’t know you want to buy the Taj Mahal in Lego, right? Let’s say it’s already bought, let’s say, and and it’s already assembled by someone versus you taking the time with the pieces and assembling it. I think it really depends on your use case, right? Because the latter, which is you assembling it, aka building your own custom use case for your custom EI. You get to control the nuts and bolts and the knobs overall. Yes, that comes at a theme knowledge. You have to read the instructions of the Lego. You have to know what’s happening. You have to know what looks like. You have to maintain it. if the pieces come across, it’s on you versus just buying it. You can say, “Hey, no, like I have this warranty like it it came across like can you fix it? This is kind of your issue as a whole.” So that’s I would at a high level what I would say is, you know, buying it off the shelf, so to speak, and then versus custom making building it just in in lay person terms that we can all understand. But there is added nuance to it, right? That comes at a cost. The customization is super helpful when your scenario is a unique one that you need for your own company whether that’s specific access control etc. However, in this day and age, we have companies like Azure data bricks, right? The team that I’m on, uh, the service that we provide where it’s someone’s full-time job to find what the best model is for you to execute on, you know, whatever scenario for business users that you’re trying to do and it’s someone’s job to say, okay, how how can I make this more performant? How can I make this cost effective overall? Right? So those are the trade-offs that one would usually think about it that initial investment versus maintain and co maintenance costs and then things like patching and maintenance as a whole. Um so it’s really if you want to hire someone to do a job that’s an expert versus you build that in-house expertise and because the game is changing so frequently it may be hard to build that expertise inhouse. And so that’s why we’re seeing a lot of companies just say, “Hey, no, actually I want to use, you know, Microsoft AI services or Azure data bricks and the like to do that for me as I build it out. So I don’t have to have a custom in-house team with all of those um expertise that I have to then build and manage and maintain overall. So that’s a high level of kind of some of the tradeoffs. Of course, there’s other angles like risk, security, technical debt, and also the time. The time that it takes for you to build a team, get it at production scale, and then ship it to production versus maybe what people who are doing this already as a service would be very very different. Um, so those are a few things to consider in in in those two options. Yeah. So, you know, if you if you sort of have to state down a few factors, um, given your experience, when is it sort of a no-brainer for a company to build its own infrastructure? And you know when is it better to go with a pre-built solution? Great question. I think if your scenario is such that hey you want to let’s take the data example right because that’s the space that that I work in um a lot more now. And so in that scenario if you want to get rich insights from your data that you already have and you don’t want to worry about access control and authentication etc. In those kinds of scenarios I would always recommend something like Azure data bricks as a whole. Right? It’s a no-brainer to me because personally, one of our main missions is we want people to spend less time working with the data and cleaning the data and getting the data to the form that you need to then build AI on top of it. Let us take care of that for you. So you and your team spend time actually getting the insights and the rich insights that you can from the data. And so really kind of outsourcing or letting us take care of all of that compliance, patching, maintenance. So that’s usually what I would recommend. One would say I’m biased overall. That being said though, um some teams or some companies are also starting to build their in-house expertise of these kinds of solutions and so they also lean towards a hybrid model as well where for some major well- tested scenarios they’ll use something like Azure data bricks or AI foundry uh etc at Microsoft but then for specific use cases they’ll they’ll do that. So a hybrid approach is also I think less work but I definitely recommend just using a service um for it. I think that it’s a lot easier. You get to co-inovate you know with us at Microsoft for we learn more about your use cases and scenarios and then we take care of kind of the hassle overall. So in my experience that’s totally what I would recommend. So you know the points that you mentioned do they sort of apply both to smaller companies and large organizations or does the size matter? Yeah great question. I think I think the size totally matters, right? If you are a small company, how are you going to find a team to go and build all of these things for you? So, in those cases, I would recommend using a service and then investing in said in the service versus the in-house expertise. So, you’re able to fail fast and and move fast as a whole and and see if the scenario is actually applicable for your use case uh for your company. Um, larger enterprises, I feel like it’s a no-brainer, right? They’re already doing this with their cloud infrastructure and Azure. It’s the similar move that we saw from uh on premises to the cloud, right? Where people had their own data centers that they were running, they were managing, etc. Then the era of the cloud came and and we’re still actually seeing some migrations now from on premises in the cloud. Very similar, right? If you have your own data center, you have to take on everything and you manage everything. Yes, it comes with more control, but it comes with more cost as well, right? So, it’s that cost trade-off. And smaller companies, I’ve seen that they are more conscious of the cost, rightly so, right? Like I am too. like nothing against that but then it might be better in that scenario to outsource it so to speak or buy the service um and the product as a whole because the people cost maintaining that in the long term does add up and for enterprises I think it’s a no-brainer right you you just use something like Azure data bricks as a whole which is what we’re seeing it’s one of our largest um markets today yeah no I think that makes a lot of sense so Anami for businesses opting to buy solutions like data bricks what are some of the hidden costs or challenges they should clearly keep in mind I think the biggest thing is understanding your data estate right so a lot of these solutions AI is kind of at the top of all of the base that’s the data and and the problem with data today is in multiple formats there structured unstructured data etc so usually when we work with customers we want to make sure that there’s some understanding of where they want to get to so my question that I always ask is okay what if you could make up all of your data estate today like just dream it up and you had unlimited resources what would that look like? Right? And so it’s always about simplicity, consistency, and ease of use. And so getting there though requires some management and some uh handholding overall. So one thing that I always recommend is making sure that you understand where you’re at, right? So doing an audit and saying, “Hey, this is where we are and this is where we want to be.” And then once we get there using you know plugging that data whether your data is in another cloud whether your data is in uh unstructured data structured data in external thirdparty sources as a whole but knowing what that is I think is like the biggest deal the second thing that I would say is also what is the questions that your company is struggling with overall right because at the end of the day what we want to do is enable even people who are not data science experts or data intelligence experts or who don’t need to understand everything about the data should be able to ask the question, right? My goal or my personal belief is that imagine just being able to talk to your data. So you don’t have to go ask someone, hey, what are last quarter’s results or are we meeting our revenue targets, etc., right? We do business reviews in in variety of organizations for this. What if on the fly I could just talk to my data to know in real time so there’s no lag about that. Think about the minutes and the time spent that we could save over the course of so many periods of time. So I think two things to summarize. Understanding where you’re at today and where you want to go and then two with that what are insights or what are questions you want to ask your data and how do you make it as accessible as possible. Like the best use case for me is you have your data Azure data bricks you’re doing all of your analysis insights. You use an AI model whatever AI model that you prefer and you build an agent. You can talk to it in Microsoft Teams, right? People all over the world for different companies use Teams. Imagine just being able to ask that question directly. I don’t even have to know what model it is. I don’t even have to know what data product you’re using under the covers. I get my question answered. And that’s so powerful because now I don’t have to go to school for data science or take a course of like how to learn Azure data bricks or anything of the sort. I just have that information to my advantage. And that’s powerful, right? Like empowering anyone to get those insights within your organization. So that’s usually the mindset that I like to prime uh our customers with and and envision a future like that because I think that is the future in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. You know that was that was a lot of tech jargon that we just talked about right now you know sometimes I do feel like I drink too much of the Kool-Aid. I’m like wait I am I even making sense to people not in tech? Like I don’t know. No, I think you know um the value that you add by making things more relatable for the layman you know and for the people who are not typically from tech background that sort of matters a lot because at the end of the day you should be able to understand all of this and there is no other point. Oh yeah. And I think I noticed that uh to your point though, I noticed that early in my career. I think a lot of people had um networking PhDs and all of these things, right? And they were like, “Oh, like networking is complex.” And don’t get me wrong, it is complex. But I think the true skill that people have, I think the true sign of intelligence, I think the true sign of understanding is if you can take something that’s seemingly complex and simplify it, right? And that’s really what I’ve tried to do overall. I’m like, a virtual network, guys, is just kind of like your home in the cloud. Everybody understands what a home is, right? But now it’s a home in the cloud. So simplifying things that are seemingly complex is going to be so critical. And I know there’s always this narrative of like, oh, AI is coming for your job, etc. Nobody can take something complex and simplify it without like a human involved, right? You have to understand who you’re talking to, how you’re talking to it. So in my opinion, it’s going to help you be more productive. But I don’t think it’s coming after your jobs, right? I think your jobs will change and evolve and you see how you can add more value with this on the side. But so important to take these complex things and make it accessible, right? Like everybody should have access to information and and everybody should be able to make the right decisions based on the information they have available to them. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Very beautifully put together by you. So Anabi, if we sort of um dive a bit into the governance and security side of things, data governance and compliance have become top priorities in AI infrastructure. So, how do large organizations like Microsoft handle the complexity of these regulations while scaling AI solutions? Yeah, great question. So, at Microsoft, we have an annual I believe like $1 billion that we put towards just cyber security and safety overall, right? And coupled with I think a team of almost 9,000 people if I remember correctly. But that’s just an example to show the scale of which we’re doing this for, right? Cuz we’re constantly protecting our customers across the board for all Microsoft services then specifically when it comes to AI. So you’ll see the example with Azure OpenAI, right? The difference between maybe other models is that hey, we have responsible AI that comes with certain policies that we add on which is why then micros uh Microsoft trusted services are actually trusted um by consumers as a whole. So I think the key to this is just having a group of people and building that in-house expertise and we’ve been doing this for a while, right? Compliance regulations are not new for a variety of different things, but now there’s that added angle of AI overall, right? And I think that is actually the biggest factor that we see for customers to take PC’s or proof of concepts of AI out to scale and use it in their companies, right? Making sure it’s safe, making sure it’s reliable, making sure you have that governance angle as a whole. So one thing I really appreciate with Azure data bricks and then data bricks as a whole is the governance that that is offered with unity catalog. So the names of the features and the functionalities really don’t matter. But being able to give someone fine grain security control whether it’s like hey actually like you’re not in HR so you can’t see I don’t know salary information etc. So having that fine grain level of control is going to be important and exposing that but then also having the backing of a large company like Microsoft whose job it is people’s job it is to make sure that this is secure compliant and and updating right policies are constantly being updated as a whole. So that’s something that I feel like we offer which is very different from maybe a data brick solution on another cloud as a whole. And at Microsoft we have what we call a firstparty integration and all that means is that the Azure solution is a Microsoftbacked product versus what you get in maybe other clouds as a whole. So yeah to summarize I think having that built-in expertise of people who are doing this we’ve been doing this for years as a whole coupled with making that available and accessible to customers uh in services because security governance and compliance this is really the three key pieces without this any product fails not just AI as a whole right but any product without it is is really the fundamentals you might have seen something that Microsoft is doing which is the secure futures initiative or SFI as we call it internally making sure that these fundamental things are just covered across across the board, right? Uh and we have to report to a vast many authorities on the status of that overall. But those are the kind of things that are super critical and I think that no one can do it at the scale and the reliability like Microsoft can overall but yeah they’re the cornerstones without this there’s no product that makes a lot of sense. So um you know Anavi um you know in your experience what strategies you think businesses should use to prioritize long-term scalability without sacrificing immediate business needs when we talk about you know um leveraging AI. Good question. Um I think the key is having that vision of where you want to be in the long term, how that’s going to happen in the short term as well. Right? So because what I mean by that and if I say it a little differently is sometimes you’ll have to take a cost in the short term to make things better in the long term right and that I think is where that that question that I usually ask customers is where do you see this going what is your dream scenario for data and AI and how do you want to enable it and having that vision or that long-term goal I think much like in life right helps like in the short term you have to you have to do some things that are maybe painful and so when I say painful in this context it may be like taking the cost on right having the right stakeholders agree that this is how we define policies, this is how we interact with the data and this is what we’re going to do and maybe there’s friction because your company is not used to having these policies or these guidelines or uh this procedure as a whole. So in the short term it may be painful because policies guidelines need to be updated but in the long term once cuz everybody’s resistant to change right like we all are it’s like why why do we change but once you show that hey here’s how we can make this better for everyone in our company because the next time you need to leverage AI for your business use case this is like our method of operation or our modus operandi so to speak right um and I think that that really is is how to make that short-term cost whether that is actually monetary cost. Whether that’s cost of training people, changing mindsets, whether that’s cost of even retiring services and products, right? Or whether there’s technical debt. That’s another another aspect of it. So those are costs that I would take personally for that long term. Now that’s in my experience. Of course, every company has to decide for themselves, but those are key factors that that we’ve seen. Also in the short term your cost upfront cost may be more but in the long term your maintain maintenance cost will be less right so that’s another consideration that I would recommend for for people so you know while data bricks and other third party platforms offer powerful tools how can businesses sort of ensure that they’re not too reliant on a single vendor I’m of the school of thought that unfortunately you are going to be reliable on a vendor you just want to make sure you pick the pick the vendor that’s best for your use case in this day and age with the cloud with the size of data with the scale it is impossible for every company to go build that kind of scale and infrastructure out. So I think step one is just resetting expectations. You are going to be reliant like period, right? Like it is what it is the nature of the business and and yes it maybe it sucks but but at the end of the day you do get the benefits of it. That’s kind of one reset I would do. But that being said you are welcome to build tools that are portable right like we were just talking to a customer yesterday and they were like hey I need to do some stuff on on our side to make sure that the tools and the code that I have is portable. So in the event that I do need to shift it, I’m able to. Right? So that’s kind of the perspective that I would recommend where like whether you like it or not, you will be reliant on a vendor and whether that’s a cloud vendor, whether that’s a data and analytics and AI solution vendor as a whole is going to be part of the business. But it is your responsibility and that’s maybe the cost or the maintenance or the expertise or the technical debt that you take on or the technical cost not the debt uh that you take on to say hey but in the event that things don’t go well I’m able to still have a migration strategy or a migration plan as a whole and making sure you’re using tools and functionality that is portable uh and have that plan mapped out right so I always say like I don’t have a backup plan I have a I have a plan B I have a plan C I even have a plan Z right from all the way from A to Z. And so that’s my just funny way of saying that hey, you always plan for the worst case scenario. You always assume breach in security. You always assume failure in availability, but you plan for it, right? You don’t sit in this world that oh nothing’s going to fail and everything’s going to be secure. No, you assume breach and then plan for it because you want to limit the breach. You want to make sure you contain it within a small blast radius and go from there. So just like that, that same principle is like okay, you are reliant on a provider in the event that something happens. what is your game plan and how do you mitigate your uh your risk in that scenario? That’s where that I usually recommend people follow because we shouldn’t be kidding ourselves, right? There’s only a few major players here. You are going to be relying on them. We’ve we’ve seen that very recently with some of the outages and and issues that have happened uh in the world. So that’s my personal philosophy on it. I I don’t think it’s the most popular one, but that’s my take. No, no, I think that um you said it great. Um, and also, you know, while you were mentioning about change, I think change is indeed the only constant and we’ve we’ve sort of got to just keep up with it. If we can’t, then we just out of the game pretty much like I think that right now there’s no choice, right? You got to be adaptable continually. Uh, totally. So, um, as a woman in a leadership role at Microsoft, what unique challenges have you faced in this maledominated industry? It’s funny. So, I didn’t think this used to be a thing to be honest. Uh I think growing up uh for some reason I don’t know if I was privileged or not but uh you used to hear about this I used to hear about stories of people saying like oh there’s not enough women. And I was like I don’t know what you’re talking about. Like I’m surrounded by women. Women are everywhere. Women are awesome. We love women. It was not until uh so I studied math and stat as I statistics as I mentioned earlier. It was not until my senior year, which is my last year, uh I was in this upper level math course and I was one of two women in that course. It was just me and my friend and of course we became closer and it was just us. And that’s when it really hit me and that that was my first like I I didn’t realize that this was a thing cuz I had never experienced myself. Of course, I believe people and I believe their lived experiences, but I think it’s different slightly when you experience it yourself. So, I think that was my first harsh kind of hit in the head moment where I was like, oh wait, like yeah, it is just two of us in this like 40 30 person class, which is crazy to me. So, that was kind of my first okay like this is something this is a thing. in I think even today there are a lot of rooms where I’m the only woman in but I don’t think that luckily for me that has been uh an issue and I think mostly that’s because of the people that I have around me and and that’s just luck right I didn’t pick that hey this is going to be my team it just it just happened that this was my team and that’s actually another reason why I stuck around for the the time that I have because we just have straight up good people who will have your back and who will defend you um in situations like that So I have heard of experiences of women that are not as great and so I will not deny that it is hard and and sometimes it is uh less than ideal and people have had to change teams or even careers in some cases. Um but in my personal experience I’m very thankful that I have not had to deal with that. Um mostly because of that allyship and the people that I have around me because I think it’s more powerful when you come to someone else’s defense, right? because you’re yes something is happening to you but seeing someone else step in and say hey actually no that’s not right I think that’s more powerful and that’s the culture that I’ve tried to build in my team from my experience early on so I think I totally lucked out but it’s kind of sad that I lucked out right like this should be the norm this should be the experience overall so while I did luck out I try to then go and be that same ally for other people overall when I hear stories or when I hear their lived experiences of what I can do so the other aspect is whether you like it or not, currently we are in what I would say a game that’s rigged, right? Like we should just be upfront about it. I think that women are judged more harshly. Uh I think women do have disadvantages uh in different areas. But my perspective on that is hey at least I know the game is rigged and as a result of that I can make my moves appropriately and so that’s what I try to do overall. I think denying it or think that thinking that it’s not the case is not going to help anyone. But then being in a position of power, I’m also able to influence that and change that and call things out, right? Like I’ve definitely called people out or maybe I would say call people in is a better way of saying I’ve called people in uh overall and mostly people are like, “Wow, you know, I didn’t even realize that that’s how I came across to her and I’ll totally follow up.” Right? People mean well. I think people want to do the right thing. We’re busy. We’re not at the same empathy level maybe. But in my experience, every time I’ve come to someone’s aid uh and saying, “Hey, actually that didn’t sit well with me. I’ll give you the best of intent, right? Maybe your intent was the best, but here’s what I think.” And every single time, like every single time, I think that’s happened like five time or six times. Every single time, the person on the other side is like, “Wow, like thank you for letting me know. I didn’t even think of it that way. Let me go figure it out and fix it.” So, I think we have that responsibility and I think I have that responsibility personally um being that ally overall. So, that’s a little bit of of my kind of experience with it. I don’t think I have necessarily a oh my god, like this happened and it was hard for me personally. Like I said, I’ve lucked out, but it’s sad that I’ve lucked out, but then I give back and I make sure that when I see something that’s not okay, I call people in. Yeah, I think that’s a great way to put it, you know, calling people in. And then I do believe that people in higher positions or maybe people who are at you know um more uh bigger hierarchical positions than you are in at times they have a way of saying things and not understanding how things are coming across and at times it’s not just easy to tell them or call them in you know that you know is hard it’s a skill I had to learn. So one of my really great um mentors and friends who I’m lucky to call a friend uh that I met through work as well. He taught me this. He I you know one day I was complaining I was like I just think that this person like didn’t say this well or whatever and he was like hey like you know this happens to everyone here’s my strategy about it and if it didn’t sit well with you just say that hey it didn’t sit well with you and and take it oneonone right take it with them oneonone there’s no need to do this in like a group setting so a quick email or better yet a call cuz sometimes tones and and written text can be misconstrued and so this is what I learned from him and he said hey just take them aside and say hey this is what happened it didn’t sit well with me I’m going to assume the best intent because you know I’ve worked with you before but I just thought that I should let you know etc. And it seems like such a silly thing. When he told it out to me loudly, I was like, “Wait, why didn’t I think of that?” But ever since then, I’ve just been doing that and it’s it’s little things. And every single time, I kid you not, everybody’s been like, “Wow, actually, thank you.” Like, I never even saw it from that point of view. Like, this is actually super helpful. I’m like, “Okay, amazing. You’re not an actual.” So, I’m not going to sit there and and kind of resent this person for the rest of my life. And in most cases, our working relationships have improved as a whole because you’re building the trust. you’re building the credibility, but I think it’s your responsibility to do it politely, professionally, and kindly and and always assume good intent, right? Like that’s I think the key. I don’t think people are like inherently evil out there and being like, “Oh, like I’m going to make this person’s life hell.” It takes fine to do that. I had to learn that. Uh I didn’t know that you could just do that. And of course, I was way younger at the time. So, I got also called in. I was like, “Hey, like if something doesn’t sit well with you, maybe just just say it politely to the person. They probably they probably meant well.” And that has saved my life so many times for sure. But it is hard. It’s not easy to do. It takes a spine. Yeah, it absolutely is because you know I often see women even in my space they would rather let it go than to address it. And at times no matter how you know powerful they are in their particular positions, they would just rather stay quiet or um you know choose to not talk about it. And then you know since you’re brought up differently I mean you know um it is indeed a privilege again with you know the spaces that you were in or probably I was in. But then you know there are women that I I would feel that they would just let something slip away or just you know let it go knowing very well that they should be voicing it out rather than hiding it. Yeah. And I think this is one of actually a great example of a short-term pain for a long-term benefit. It is very uncomfortable to have these conversations sometimes. Yes. you know, you can do it politely professionally, but it it does make you uncomfortable, right? Like the first time I was like, wait, like I’m I’m telling this person that like something that they did for like regarding how they talk to someone else did not sit well with me. Like first of all, like what gives me the right or whatever. But I think that is uncomfortable and and that’s not easy, but I think that’s important because it’s a short-term pain for a long-term benefit, right? Because think about the other experiences of different people, of any people, how you’re making better to influence that, right? And at the end of the day, I think it just comes down to for me at least, I’m sleeping with myself at night. I want to be able to do like I have done everything in my capability to make sure people around me are treated well. If I know of something that’s not going happen, not happening well, like I’ve done everything in my power to change that, right? That’s what it comes down to. I personally do not want to be the person where I see something and I didn’t say anything about it. And I just don’t think I could live with myself personally. Right? So, I think I think that that’s really all it comes down to. And that’s a short-term uncomfortable conversation or a short-term. Now it’s easy. Now, now I feel like I have so now I’m like happy to do it. But initially it was like a short-term uncomfortable conversation for like a long-term benefit. Now you’re just a pro. Now I’m like happy to do it. Um yeah. Yeah. So you know Anavi what role do you think women in diverse perspectives play in driving innovation in the tech landscape given that you know at times it’s said that women are more high on emotions or they tend to be more empaths in comparison to men uh we do not really have to believe in these but then I I believe that they do have a certain you know impact on these larger ideas so you know what are your thoughts on that so I’ll say two things the first thing I’ll say is that uh human beings irrespective of gender are decision makers based on emotion. There’s research and study based on this. There was a study that was done where the part of our brain controls emotion actually that part of these people’s the sample side was damaged. Okay? So they couldn’t actually feel emotions the way that the rest of us do. And these people were asked to make decisions logic and logic out like you know which option is better for example. I mean probably not these basic questions but I’m just giving an example. All of those people could logic the questions. Not a single one can make a decision. What that means is that human beings whether we want to believe it or not our emotions are emotionally based period. So I think this is something we all have to align on irrespective of gender it is just the way we are. We can logic through things but without the emotion side of our brain we will not make decisions because it is based on that. So I think that’s something that I always want to ground people in. I was like irrespective of gender like it’s going to be based on that. The second thing in my experience I have seen more women are more have more I would let’s say um social aptitude right dynamics and understanding things overall although I do see um men nowadays also understanding that but I think I would use that to my advantage right I think that’s something that I always encourage people that I mentor to use that to your advantage right if you have more empathy if you are more socially apt if you have that kind of understanding of dynamics body language etc use that to your benefit because at the end of the day. What is going to make you successful is who you can impact, who you can influence, how you get people to commonly agree on a mission and drive that forward. Right? Especially in my role as a product manager, it’s so important to get people together to a common mission or a goal with constraints and driving that forward. And if I have a skill set such as better social empathy or more social aptitude than someone else, I’m going to use that to my advantage as a whole, right? I’m a strong believer from using the resources you have at your disposal or leverage to get things done. Right? So that’s one example that I would recommend people do dayto-day. I do not believe the narrative that women are more emotional. In my experience, it’s been the other gender that’s more emotional. I’m like, “Okay guys, like get over it. Like let’s all move on. It’s it’s not personal overall.” Um, but and I think I said that I think my one of my biggest flexes um in like an email was it was all men and they were getting emotional and I was the only woman on this alias or on this email thread. And I literally said, “All right, guys, let’s not get too emotional over here. Let’s remember we’re trying to focus on the company and the customer and that’s our common mission and let’s do that, right?” And one of the senior leaders responded to me and said, “Thank you. Thank you for saying that.” I was like, “Yeah, let’s not kid ourselves. Let’s not say it’s one gender over the other. We’re all like this. We’re all human beings. It is what it is.” But I will say that yeah, if I have that social aptitude and irrespective of my gender, I’m going to use it to my advantage. No, I I think I I you know, I I love your honesty there and how you know, you have a certain sass about your personality. So u you know it makes me ask you this question that you know have you felt this difference in in your leadership style in comparison to your other male colleagues and how they are leading their teams or do you feel that you know given what you just said recently there’s not really much difference. Yeah I think being a leader is so personal. It’s so much to do with um how you can push yourself. Like when I had the opportunity to become a manager honestly I was a little I was like wait like are you sure? Like what? Like this is going to be a lot of work, right? Because now you’re you’re kind of in this role where you have a working style and you have a way to do things. But you have to meet other people from different backgrounds, different qualifications, different skill sets, different personalities as a whole and help them be like, oh, how can we work together to get something done? And that’s really like I have to kind of update the way I function based on the person as a whole, right? So maybe one like for example person A is hey if you give them something they will do it and they’ll run with it and they’ll come back to an update. If I try to micromanage or ask specific questions to this type of person it’s going to rub them the wrong way and they’re going to be ineffective versus some there’s person B who is actually not good with time management or and sometimes they work better when they have a deadline. So then I have to be the person be like hey this is our deadline for this and then that makes them better. Right? So, it’s really hard in the sense that you have to meet people where they are, but you have to update your leadership style in order to do that. And I think that takes a lot of work and time and energy and not a lot of people realize that. And all the good managers that I have, which luckily in my experience has only been good managers, have taken the time to understand the individual, understand the way the person works and and then updating their styles based on that. So, I think that’s one in terms of day-to-day. Again, that’s I think irrespective as a whole. But then I think something that I’ve realized that sets me apart maybe versus other people or my colleagues is that hey you can be smarter than me, you can be more technical than me. You can be whatever better than me as a whole. But I think something that you cannot do is care more than me. And when I when you care, the way you do something is very different than when you don’t care as a whole, right? And I think it’s so important for everyone to find their their differentiator what it is. And I didn’t realize that until I I switched teams and then a lot of people came in or you know my my previous team came up to me and said hey like you’ve set such a high bar as a manager and I don’t think I’ll ever have a manager like you. I was like what are you talking about right? Like I’m just doing my job I I don’t understand like are you talking about someone else because genuinely I was literally just doing my job which is you know to set you up for your success overall. But I think that’s when I realized that hey like because you care because I care the way I do something is very different. Uh and I don’t have to be the smartest in the room. I don’t have to be the brightest in the room. I just have to care enough to get things done and call people in when needed overall. So, I think those are the things that differentiate me. And in my experience, I’ve just picked this up from people that I’ve looked up to or people that I’ve resonated to. And so, I always say, “Hey, like I love how Jeff does this, I’m going to do that. I love how Nion does this. I’m going to do that. I love how Ross does this and I’m going to do that.” Right? I love how Asha does this and I’m going to do that. I love how Scott does this and I’m going to do that. So I think that is a conscious thing that I do and I spend time to do that and I think that is always going to differentiate a good leader or a good person even honestly or a good manager uh than maybe not not as good or not as great one. So that’s the difference that I usually see uh across the board. Yeah. Yeah. I guess you know I sort of believe that even from my own personal experience um I’ve had some really great managers as well you know but then I believe that at times they had a certain way to themselves about being super cutthroat about things they would care but then they would not really show it. So when you become a manager, your way of doing things is different because now you know you have ages or generation like Gen Z that you know you’re leading. So obviously you know things are different for you in comparison to how things were done back by your superiors. And those tactics they sort of do not work anymore because you know the time has changed the generation has changed and at times you know people management cannot really be that easy you know while you’re managing people and then doing your own work as well and then it can get a lot at times and overwhelming especially when you care. So how would you comment on that? Totally. I I think 100% and I think that to me is why it’s so important to make sure managers are well supported as well as making sure they’re not having to do what I call like individual contributor work in addition to their job right so when I initially became a manager I was still you know writing specs and shipping products as a whole and I will say that that initial period was really hard because I was being a manager and doing this role which in in my opinion it’s impossible to do both well and the only way I did it is I slept nothing and I never want to do that again. But I think that it’s so important to create that culture that is supportive of managers, but also pushing managers to be like, hey, like it’s okay to meet people where they are. And you amplify a different side of your leadership style with different people, right? And so being able to be who you are at work, I think is super important. Like for example, I don’t have the time or the cycles to be a different person at work versus like not at work. Like that to me is is too much work. So I think how we can incentivize people to bring their authentic self and validate that dude like it’s okay to care like we all care it’s fine whether we want to admit it or not we all care at the end of the day. Uh and yes that comes with the tax. It’s it’s exhausting actually exhausting to care. I I will not agree. I’m like I’m tired like I’m ready to sleep this weekend as a whole. But I think it’s also important that we are people. Like if I’m spending 8 hours or more at a job in a day, daytoday with people, I want to create a culture that is fun. I want to create a culture that is reliable, a culture that is engaging, a culture that people can bring their own authentic selves to as a whole. Of course, with boundaries, of course, with healthy environments as a whole. But that cannot come at the cost of caring. Like I I think that we have this thing and this is going to sound like I’m drinking so much of the Microsoft Kool-Aid, but they always tell managers that like, hey, you have to what is it? Coach care uh is like basically two of the three important kind of ideals as a whole. And I think that’s so important, right? You coach people because either you could do it in the short term but then suffer in the long term if you don’t coach them cuz sometimes it’s really hard to be like I can just do it myself. But that’s easier in the short term but in the long term that’s painful. So becoming the person is like okay let me coach you through this. let me help you think end to end why this is valuable in the way we do it. And so again, that takes time and energy because I could have just had it done because I know how to do it. But now my skill set is not evaluated on what I’m getting done individually. It’s how I’m enabling a group of people to get things done and how I’m enabling them to empower themselves to get it done, right? And so they always have this coach care thing. And so coach and care is so important because that’s really the fundamental of it. So, I personally don’t get when people are like, “Hey, like just to the point and closing it.” I’m like, “You can you can do that if that’s the kind of person that you’re chatting with, right? If you’re interacting with, but that’s not going to fly with everyone else.” Some people love that. Some people love the direct this is what it is, you know, like businessto business end of everything. And that’s fine. It’s important for you to recognize that as a manager, but most people in my experience are not like that. And so, it does take time. It does take energy. And I think we just have to be real with ourselves. like it is like a lot of times I’ll do my manager stuff and then at 5:00 p.m. I’ll be like, “Oh crap, I’ve gotten none of my work done.” It is just part of the job and it is part of the um part of it. And so finding companies that support people in those roles that acknowledge the coaching and the caring I think is is super critical as well. And I sort of believe that you know being at Microsoft um they’ve sort of built and put culture you know together in a way since they have a lot of diverse people coming from different places different countries for that matter and since they you know they’re advocating on all of the principles of inclusivity but you know it’s not really followed the same way in the rest of the companies out there. So you know what particular um you know advices would you give on managerial levels for companies and people that they could sort of you know um should implement at a company cultural level. I think I personally believe that culture rots an organization from the head. There is only so long you can be successful effective with a bad culture. Right? And so it’s so important for companies to realize that listen in the short term you’ll make your profits. You’ll get your jobs done. Things will happen. Sure you’ll retrain people. But retention or lack of retention comes at a cost to the company as well, right? So forget about the people angle. Forget about the caring angle. Forget about being good citizens and and being good humans angle. All of that is super important. But if I had to convince a company that didn’t care about all of that, I would say, “Dude, it’s going to affect your profits.” How many times are you going to retrain people on the same content? They’re going to come and go because they’re not going to like nobody’s going to stay in an environment that’s toxic and not a good culture, right? Maybe they’ll stay in in a bad job market, but the minute the job market stays like is improved, they’re out. So that comes at a cost. So translating, I think this is where we failed in this like cultural and you know diversity inclusion conversation. It’s always been the focus versus converting it into what is meaningful for the people. So if you are a company, I will talk to you in a language that makes sense to you. I’ll be like, “Dude, your profit is going to suck.” And my estimate is that you will have to retrain these people on the same content from here to here. This is how it’s going to affect your gross margin. This is how it’s going to affect your profit and loss statement or P&L. This is why you should care about it. And then suddenly they’re like, “Oh yeah, you’re actually right. I don’t want to keep retraining people. Yes, my turnover is high and very bad compared to other things. then maybe I should do these few things that are tried and tested with these other companies. Right? So I think it’s the same thing taking something seemingly complex or seemingly something that someone doesn’t understand but translating it to a language that they understand. Everybody gets profit and usually it’s people who care about the profit more than other things. What they don’t realize is that profit can also be lost or that revenue whatever will also be lost at the cost of culture. Right. Yeah. Seen this time and again. So I think just translating it into a language that resonates with the individuals and with the companies is what I would say it. So if they care about profit, I talk to them in terms of profit. If they care in gross margin, I talk to them in terms of gross margin. If they care on the cultural people angle, I’ll talk to them in terms of that. So it’s important when we have these conversations to understand what is the end goal and what motivates people and what their motives are and meeting them at that. And I think that changes the game overall. Um then it’s hard to refute. It’s like no actually yeah I am a CEO and I do want to make money and then I should look at this right versus like oh someone just telling me about culture and like diversity as a whole. Yeah absolutely. So you know let’s talk about one of the hard learned lessons that you’ve had in life. Hardle learned lessons. Um good question. I think one of the ones is definitely what we were talking about and I’ll I’ll de delve into it a little deeper. So I had this interaction once and uh we had this uh it was actually a company that Microsoft had acquired and so now uh their team was part of like our larger uh ecosystem etc. And I was interacting with this one individual and for some reason right they kept mentioning and named dropping right like this is important because like Satya said or like whatever someone said it etc. And the way I am wired and functioning like I don’t care who is asking the question the answer is the answer and I will I will like have the same care and the same level of detail to it. So it could be a CEO of a company asking or my peer asking or even someone who reports to me asking like it doesn’t matter what level in the org chart any of these people are like I will respond to it with the same level of of accuracy and clarity. My answer is not going to respond because you’re like named dropping the CEO or something like that. So over a period of time this really started to rub me the wrong way and I was like dude like are you questioning my integrity or my like knowledge as a whole? Like why do you keep saying like oh like this is like a satya level thing? I’m like okay cool like everything is a Satya level thing like this is Microsoft I and we’re the cloud like we work in this super high scale business like what is the thing? And I sat there and I just stewed a little bit right like I I was like annoyed. I was like what is this person’s incentive or motive or whatever? And I think that was a really hard lesson. And I was like, okay, I talk about being the person who can get stuff done versus the being the person who complains. And I’m like, okay, what am I doing about it? So I was like, okay, I’m giving myself 5 minutes to vent about this because venting is important. It has changes lives. And then I’m going to get over it and reach out to this person and say, “Hi, XYZ. You know, we’ve been working for a past few many months overall. This comment keeps coming up and it just didn’t sit well with me. Now given my interaction with you, I know you mean well and I’m sure you mean well, but I will respond with the same level of care no matter what it is. And and I don’t think name dropping is is, you know, affect like affecting this in a positive affecting this in a positive way. And then they responded and I they said, you know what, you were right on the money. We were like a small company and no one paid attention to us unless we named. And so that’s just our culture to get stuff done. I was like, that makes so much sense. It’s just learned behavior. So, it was not like he was doing this to trigger me or annoy me, etc. It was just their culture of how they got things down. And I was like, okay, that makes more sense now that you’re like, you know, part of this large organization, like we will help you like it, you don’t have to like, oh, like this is a Satya level escalation, right? But just that was a hard truth that I had to um deal with myself, right? like I want to be a person who files the bug and files the repair item and does something about it versus being the person that just stews their complaint. And in fact, I feel like our working relationship improved so much more because, you know, he could trust me then to like tell him the not so great news and tell him the good news. And that’s how trust is built, right? Trust is built when you give people the tough message even if they don’t want to hear it. Of course, you deliver it properly. So that was one of the hard lessons that I had to learn that hey like you know what the only person that’s going to change anything is you. Like the world owes you nothing. Nobody owes you anything. It is on you to change your environment to affect change to call people in. And so after nowadays I complain for like 5 minutes and I vent for 5 minutes. I suck it up and I go do it. Right? So that was like a hard pill for me to swallow. Uh of course now it’s gotten a lot easier. Like I was saying, I think the other hard truth is that I don’t know if this is as hard of a truth as a whole, but there is no substitute for showing up. Period. You got to be if you want to do anything meaningful in anything in your life, work, not work, in my humble opinion, and my mother always says this. She’s like, “Showing up is half the battle, right?” She said this to me like since the beginning, and I used to wonder what this woman is on. I’m like, “What are you talking about, lady?” But you know what? The woman knows what she’s talking about. Showing up is half the battle. You always have to be the person who shows up if you want to do anything meaningful. It is very easy for someone to sit here and say, “Wow, Anab, like in 9 years you have done all of this sus stuff like you know you’re so young blah blah blah.” Okay, but nobody knows that I was awake until midnight testing the first feature even though I’m not the developer that I had to launch overall. Nobody knows the hours that I spent in building 42 o on 40 over many years and didn’t go home in time for dinner, etc. Nobody knows how I showed up, right? And and now I’m just reaping the benefits of how I showed up. And I’m not saying this where like I want people to know that I did all of this. I really don’t care. Like people don’t need to know. But I think it just is the hard truth that you got to put in the time. You got to show up. And there is no substitute for this if you want to do anything meaningful. I don’t think anyone who is in any position that I want to be in has ever said, “Oh, it’s 5:00 p.m. I got to go.” They’ve said, “Hey, like actually I need to go do this personal thing and I will come back as a whole.” Right? And I think that’s the difference of how you want to be. It’s it’s kind of like in this day and age, we expect all of the benefits without doing the work. And I think that’s my own message. I’m not saying be like me and test till midnight or like some crazy thing, but find the balance that works for you. I could do that then because my life looked very different back then than it did now. And my priority was more towards work than it is whatever whatever season of life you’re in and whatever your priorities are. But there’s no substitute to showing up and and that’s very hard because you have to show up consistently regularly and all the time. And that benefit again will come to you later and and not initially right now. If you ask me to test something till midnight tonight, I’ll be like Rabia you’re crazy. I’m going to do. But again, that season in my life, I was able to show up and then that has helped me uh overall. So that’s that’s the second hard pill. So to summarize, one have the tough conversations. Nobody’s coming to save you. You got to do it yourself. And then I think the second of there’s no there’s no substitute for showing up. Period. AI or no AI, you you got to show up. You got to do the work. Uh I think those are my two tough things seemingly tough things that I’ve learned in the last few years. Yeah. Now, thank you for pouring your heart out there because, you know, I think that was that was really really um insightful what you said, you know, being able to show up in how you know you do it over the years over the years and sometimes it’s just sort of taken for granted even by ourselves at times. We we do not tend to give ourselves a lot of credit, you know, under imposter syndrome and lot of other things. But you know there are moments when you’ve got to remind yourself that where you are today it it took all those years all those nights or moments of breakdown and you know hence here you are. Yeah totally. I think uh separately I personally have never got this imposttor syndrome thing. I don’t understand it. I refuse that it exists. I I think the more we talk about it as people I think the more people normalize it. And I refuse to let it be normalized. We should say like no it’s not okay. It’s not a thing. You are meant to be here. This is this is what it is. So, it’s funny. So, whenever someone says it, I’m like, “No, what are you talking about? Like, you’re meant to be here. Like, I don’t understand. This is not normal. Normalizing common. It’s not normal.” Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So, I mean, if you weren’t like, you know, at this age in space and time, if you weren’t doing this at Microsoft, what else would you have been doing? Wowh, great question. It’s funny. Um, every once in a while I have that feeling where I’ve learned the reward for working hard is more work, sadly. Oh, yes. This is one of the hard truths. No, just kidding. And so, it’s funny. So, when I decided to move and and kind of study and and have a career and things like that, my mother had said that, hey, you know, why are you doing all this? Just open an art studio. You’re so good at art and you should just do that. So every like every once in a while I’m just like mother was right. I should have just opened my I would not be would not be in this se one bridge. I would not be in this escalation/f fire at work. But no, jokes aside, I think that something that I would probably be having to do is having an impact uh on the world cuz the only thing that keeps me going is being able to feel fulfilled, right? So, I feel like when we’re able to do these kinds of common technologies or solutions that’s going to benefit industries across education, across any industry, education, tech, uh, me, medicine, healthcare, name the industry, right? You’re you’re creating solutions and we have customers across the board. That to me is super meaningful, right? Because that’s fulfilling. I’m not just doing something to make some rich company or some CEO richer as a whole, right? um what we’re doing is actually meaningful and and moving the needle and helping like one of the cases that we worked on was um anesthesia clinic was using one of my features that I built in their tech space and one time I was on this bridge and they were like hey like can you help us with cross-tenant v-net peering the names doesn’t matter because this is blocking our anesthesia giving like sequencing or whatever and I was just like oh my god why are you trusting my feature first of all no I’m just kidding I was just like this is crazy right like this is actually real life implications of what we’re doing. Like people’s jobs, livelihoods are at stake. And that to me is super meaningful and powerful. And so if I was not doing this, I think I would find another way to make that happen. Uh whether that’s through service leadership, whether that’s through nonprofit, whether that’s through communitydriven initiatives, I think that kind of impact that you can have is super powerful. So I don’t know what it is. I do love math. So maybe it is making people love math again or something like that or or going into rural India and helping with um menstrual health for example um because that’s that’s a big uh issue and it’s crazy that you know people’s lives are still affected by a completely normal bodily function uh just because of lack of education. So, I think those are the kind of things that I would probably be into and maybe I still will, right? Maybe maybe I’m not going to be tech in tech for the rest of my life and and still get to do things like that. But I think to me it just comes down to being feeling fulfilled and the way I do that is is helping people and industries and and having an impact at the end of the day cuz that’s all we’re here for. Nothing else really matters at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah. No, such such lovely insights. So you know while we wrap up our conversation so when you look ahead where do you see AI infrastructure heading in the you know next few years? Yeah, I think the way I envision it or what I would like it to be is um helping and aiding and embedding um human beings so to speak and and making us more productive so that we can outsource the mundane part of our jobs and the taxing part of our jobs but then focus on more on community or caring or coaching or doing the things that uniquely only we can do. Like I would love if some of the processes that we have to do are just automated and and off the hook as a whole, right? Because every company even like Microsoft has different processes that you have to follow for a variety of different things. And so if we could have an AI agent to help with that, that’s amazing because then that’s less mundane stuff a human has to do or less repetitive work or maybe your HR team is doing that same analysis or input across every single person. And they’re maybe their mental health is not so great cuz they’re like, “Oh my god, every third day I’m telling the same person the same thing.” And so if we can help kind of some of those areas, I think that’s what I envision it to be, right? So taking kind of the mundane, the not so great aspects out so people can focus on doing the things that truly fulfill them, that truly that they are passionate about. I I really believe that each job, no matter whose job it is, there’s some portion of the job that’s the tax you pay, right? The not so great aspects of the job, but you you got to do it. We got to pay our taxes, so we got to do it. So if that tax of a job can be gotten rid of or can be changed because of AI, that would be my dream. So, that’s the future that I’m going to envision today because that’s that’s what I’d like to see. Um, and just have it help people and augment and make our lives better versus uh versus taking over, I guess. But taking over is a myth. I don’t think that’s actually going to happen. Lovely. Lovely. So, you know, just any one piece of advice in particular for women, you know, who are in tech or in leadership roles? Um, call people in, right? Don’t let it go. Like you were talking about how some people let it go earlier. Don’t let it go. Uh I think the biggest fallacy uh that women or anyone can have or the biggest issue that we’ve created for ourselves is we do a lot but we don’t talk about it and we don’t complain about it. We just suck it up and kind of do it. And I think that’s the biggest disservice we’ve actually done to men and the world as a whole because nobody knows of our struggles. Nobody knows of our lived experiences. So talk about them. Like for example, if something that’s uniquely related to being a woman is impacting my day-to-day, you best believe every man I talk to in that day like knows what the issue is because that’s going to help them build empathy. They cannot be empathetic for you if they do not know your struggles. And they are not going to know your struggles if you don’t tell them, right? So don’t just tell your girlfriends, tell your guy friendss too because they also will then develop empathy and then be the next set of leaders that help the next set of women overall. So that’s one thing that I would do. Don’t let it go. Call people in. Share your struggles. I think that’s super important for us to build empathy for everyone. Well, Avi, thank you so much for joining us today and taking out the time. We look forward to seeing more of your incredible work, you know, with Arain at Microsoft. And it was just lovely, lovely having you over. Thanks so much for having me, Ravia, and and to the team as well. I really appreciate it. This was such a great conversation. What a great way to start my Friday. Thanks so much. [Music]